1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,680 Here's a subject and a man to intrigue. 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:12,000 The country's going wild now with three ports of UFO unidentified flying objects there going 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,360 all over the place. 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,560 Recently we had a guest on the show Frank Edwards who is convinced UFOs are from another 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,560 planet and he's written a book about it and has pretty good arguments. 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:30,160 Today a UFO expert Dr. Alan Heineck, he is director of Lindheimer Astronomical Research 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:36,320 Center at Northwestern University and he's consultant to the Air Force on UFOs is here 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,520 to tell us what he thinks of this phenomena. 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,800 So here is Dr. Alan Heineck. 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:48,200 We're all going to hang on every word doctor. 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,920 I tell you that. 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,120 Every word paper you pick up, magazine, it's getting hotter the whole issue. 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:57,120 It is, it is really. 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:58,120 Yeah. 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,120 What do you think? 16 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:06,920 Well, I think that I started with you, you know, way back in 1948 and then you started 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:07,920 it. 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,040 I mean I started investigating it in 1948. 19 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:17,400 And then I think I would have taken just about any bet that by 1950 or 51 we would have forgotten 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,400 the whole thing. 21 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,880 It would have been something like the, oh do you remember the, I'm sure you know, the 22 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:24,880 fish eating craze and so what? 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:25,880 Sure. 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:26,880 And the knowledge isn't. 25 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:27,880 And the reports are persisted. 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:34,880 And not only have they persisted but they're getting more and more. 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:43,080 Are you not the one doctor recently in the reports at the girl's school up in the Northwest 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,880 that went up and said it was gas or something? 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,880 Or it was a gas. 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,880 They are gas. 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,880 They are all gas. 32 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,880 So it's nothing you would let you have on the gas. 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,880 But this is a very special case. 34 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,880 Now do you have about half an hour to go into the chemistry? 35 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,880 We don't go anyway. 36 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,880 Well I think we'll postpone that unless you want to. 37 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:07,880 No, no, no, no. 38 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:14,520 But all I want from you was definitely, according to your investigation, a gas rising from 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,520 a pond, right? 40 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,720 This was a very likely explanation since the excitings occurred, both of them in Dexter 41 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,720 and in Hillsdale. 42 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,720 They both occurred in swamps. 43 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,520 And the fields have been near electrical plants. 44 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:29,520 Yes. 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:30,520 And look at them now. 46 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:36,320 They get sort of a great big electrolysis where the offshoots of atoms of electricity 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,520 might split the moisture into hydrogen and oxygen and the two gases have several colors. 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,520 There's our chemistry. 49 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,520 Did you notice what the doctor said? 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:46,520 Very good. 51 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:47,520 Very good. 52 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,520 Just as the doctor said, and this often happens on this show, we have Walter Solzano occasionally 53 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:58,520 as a society editor, the science editor, and so on that, of the New York Times. 54 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,520 And he always says, yes, that's a likely explanation. 55 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:02,520 Yes. 56 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,520 It's a very unusual explanation. 57 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:11,520 I should say, because I think if the papers jumped on that and said because this was a 58 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,520 very unusual explanation, in that case, it explained all UFOs. 59 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,520 Well, it certainly doesn't. 60 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,520 In fact, I think that was the only case we had in out of 10,000 cases. 61 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,520 Why can't I not get a scientist though to say that is definitely the explanation? 62 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,520 Well, because he's excited. 63 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,520 He's bound to be cautious. 64 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,520 He's supposed to weigh and consider. 65 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,520 He doesn't jump in and jump to conclusions unless he has some evidence. 66 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,520 What do you think, Dr., UFOs are? 67 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Well, first of all, they're reports. 68 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,520 Yeah, I've got a little thing here that just so happens. 69 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:51,520 This sheet on the Dear George, or by George, Carl and others, student wrote in, Dear George, 70 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,520 I am looking for proof that unidentified flying objects exist. 71 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,520 Somebody says you had information on this matter. 72 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,520 Do unidentified flying objects exist? 73 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,520 And what exactly are they, time student? 74 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,520 George writes back, Dear student. 75 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,520 Unidentified flying objects do exist. 76 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Obviously, if we knew what they were, they would no longer be unidentified flying objects. 77 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,520 They would be identified flying objects. 78 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:21,520 Think, man, think. 79 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,520 And that's exactly what the whole point is. 80 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:24,520 UFOs are reports. 81 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:31,520 And the great, great majority of them turn from UFOs into ISOs, identified flying objects. 82 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:32,520 The great majority. 83 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,520 They're for the unidentified ones. 84 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,520 Yeah, let's talk about the unidentified ones. 85 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:38,520 What are the possibilities? 86 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,520 What might they be? 87 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:48,520 Well, the generally, one, there's a great school that says they're all unidentified. 88 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,520 Then there are some people who will say they're secret devices. 89 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,520 The government is testing something and we really, they say, come off, 90 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,520 I can't you really tell me now. 91 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,520 I won't tell anybody now, but aren't they really secret devices? 92 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,520 And at the third hypothesis, of course, as Frank Edward seems to believe, 93 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,520 they are from other solar systems or other planets, but anyway. 94 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,520 And there are, little people are operating them? 95 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,520 Or some, well, intelligent. 96 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,520 I've never seen any new people operating them. 97 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:20,520 No, no. 98 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,520 But this is, you can see the reports. 99 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,520 And in these things, one must always remember that they are reports. 100 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:31,520 We have no hardware, no pictures that show real detail. 101 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:38,520 And I think it would have to be happier than me as an astronomer to have visits from other solar systems. 102 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,520 It would make astronomy even more exciting than it is. 103 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,520 Do you believe there are some other planets? 104 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,520 I think we must keep that possibility open, you know. 105 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:55,520 Then I asked, in all of the artist concepts that I've seen of little men from outer space, 106 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,520 they've been sort of round or egg shaped with several arms. 107 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,520 And I was looking at people or the objects. 108 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,520 Whatever we saw, whatever they seemed to have that look. 109 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:17,520 And just notice how similar that would look to a surveyor if some moon people should see this object land on the moon 110 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,520 with all the bees, tentacles and all the bees today. 111 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,520 It would seem to them as though a strange thing should happen. 112 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,520 Suppose that same minute one of our people from the space agency should press the button 113 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,520 and it should leave the moon's surface by its own power. 114 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,520 They would say, gee, we saw it land and turn around and take pictures and shoot off. 115 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,520 And then somebody on the moon tries to explain that to them. 116 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,520 Is it possible that just such technology could be taking place from other planets? 117 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,520 It's certainly possible. 118 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,520 But I think here we have to distinguish between the words possible and probable. 119 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,520 Things can be possible, scientifically possible and yet not very probable. 120 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,520 For instance, I want to know where are these things at 12 o'clock noon? 121 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,520 So many of them are reported at night. Where are they hiding at? 122 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,520 Well, wouldn't you come in at night if you were to go on another planet? 123 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,520 No, we're at 12 o'clock noon. 124 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,520 We know we're there. We can see them through telescopes. 125 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:19,520 What you are consulting to the Air Force, 126 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:25,520 is there any official word from the Air Force or curiosity, official curiosity from the Air Force? 127 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,520 Do they put any campuses? 128 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,520 Well, I have very recently and so has the Scientific Advisory Board, 129 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:40,520 that the Air Force really that we should take the whole problem considerably more seriously than we have. 130 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,520 What do they think? I think they're going to go along with me. 131 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:48,520 Let me tell you about the caliber of people who are reporting these things, Doctor. 132 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,520 The airline pilots have been reporting them. 133 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,520 What do you think of the caliber? 134 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:01,520 Well, that's the point. It wasn't Lincoln who said, I'm sure that you can't call all the people liars all the time, 135 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,520 but if you didn't, you should have said it. 136 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,520 And that's the condition I'm sort of finding myself in. 137 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,520 On one hand, we have no hardware. We have no real photographs. 138 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,520 All the things seem to be against it. 139 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,520 On the other hand, I cannot continue to call everybody a liar. 140 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:20,520 We have not only pilots, but we have directors of scientific laboratories that have reported these to me. 141 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,520 We have, well, I'll take the great number of policemen. 142 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,520 We have, I think, in general, policemen are to be respected. 143 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:39,520 It's certainly, certainly in certain cases, the testimony of those very men would be sufficient to send the person to the chair or the gas chamber. 144 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:49,520 And yet, why then should we not at least seriously take a look and listen to their testimony when they say they were followed by a very brilliant, bright light? 145 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,520 They took pictures of that, excuse me. 146 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:57,520 They took pictures of that particular one where the two highly respected policemen were together in the Midwest, remember, 147 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:02,520 and it was red with the flashing lights, and it followed the, I saw the pictures. 148 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,520 It was in the Saturday evening post. 149 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:12,520 And they had taken pictures, and that's a reliable source, because they all sent it to the chair, but they're all from there. 150 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:23,520 But they, they had taken pictures of, of, of, it looked like the usual, you know, saucers, like two saucers together, but it seemed to have a series of blights. 151 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:30,520 And of all the people who saw that, saw this thing, the, the majority of them were all highly respected people. 152 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:38,520 And in one case, the policemen saw it and he thought he was cracking up and he went and got his superior officer who came back and they took, 153 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:46,520 they did take pictures of it. It was red, and it was in some funny place like a, I hate to say funny place, should they see your show in Iowa? 154 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,520 Well, it was some darling place. 155 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:56,520 I, I was thinking, well, how come they're looking in Iowa and they were in New Hampshire and stuck to it in little towns in New Hampshire? 156 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:06,520 And I thought, gee, you think they come, I know it's that big city snobbery, but you think they come to New York or go to Washington, or go to Knox or, you know, they don't know, what's it going? 157 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:15,520 I mean, here's what they've done, but aside from the fighting, have you had any audible contact through electronic devices that would indicate there's something out there that we don't know about? 158 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:24,520 Well, that's another thing that bothers me. We do have radar surveillance. Radars that they are sufficiently good to pick up an explosion bolt in orbit. 159 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,520 You don't want to bolt something falls off a gemini or something. Radars can pick this up. 160 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:36,520 Therefore, if this is the dilemma, this is the real problem that bothers me, and I think why we should look at it more carefully. 161 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:42,520 Admitting that I've been very much a skeptic all along, and I'm generally considered a debunker. 162 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:53,520 But all along these objects or these reports, the reports, for instance, have the problem here essentially that 163 00:10:53,520 --> 00:11:02,520 you have a dilemma between lack of tangible evidence and you have the reports of reputable, good people. 164 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:15,520 Nothing has ever been recorded on radar. There are, yes, there are reports, many reports of sightings on radar, but there are also many denials. 165 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,520 It's very difficult to trace back and find out whether it actually was seen enough. 166 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:30,520 Is it possible that if they have this equipment and this ability, assuming, I would like to think personally that they really were from other planets. 167 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:31,520 I really would. 168 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:45,520 If they had this knowledge and put it to this kind of use, would they not then conceivably have something that could wipe out, you know, would something to deter their signal? 169 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,520 It's very difficult if they have any metal. 170 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,520 Maybe they don't have metal. 171 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:54,520 Maybe it's all plastic. 172 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,520 It may come from a planet where metal is not part of matter. 173 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:03,520 Well, it's becoming very archaic now, metal. Everything's in plastic. I'm sorry to say. 174 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:04,520 Oh, that's all right. 175 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,520 What is it still okay with you? 176 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,520 What are these things you brought up? 177 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:19,520 Those are simply to show that the part of the static or part of the noise, you see, part of the IFO, both the UFOs had very quickly become IFOs, identified flying objects. 178 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:27,520 We have some folks, there's not many, but here was one in Glassboro, New Jersey, which we spend a lot of time on. 179 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:33,520 And finally, after all this bunk in the middle of this, there's a black cat with a firecracker. 180 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,520 I don't think they're making black cat firecrackers on Mars. 181 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,520 But it was picked up in this one. 182 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:47,520 Two great school students, eleven-year-old students reported this to their science teacher. 183 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,520 Somebody had found this that is expelling, this is falling from the air. 184 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:57,520 It turned out to be an extrusion from a nylon machine. 185 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,520 They rejects from... 186 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:00,520 What's your old song? 187 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:01,520 What's your old song? 188 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:02,520 Sure. 189 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,520 Now, those are what you're wearing out there, ladies. 190 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,520 However, I must say, there are not many of these. 191 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,520 You would think there'd be many more hoaxes, but there aren't. 192 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,520 Do we every hear reports from other nations? Why is everything coming from America? 193 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,520 It isn't tall. 194 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,520 Other countries are reporting this, it's a global phenomenon, completely global. 195 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,520 They started in the Mennon-Siton, Sweden, not in here, 1946 in Sweden. 196 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,520 And let's go with the countries. 197 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,520 Well, England has more UFOs per square mile than we do, of course we have more square miles. 198 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,520 But France had a tremendous wave in 1964. 199 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,520 Brazil, Argentina, Australia, Japan, Spain. 200 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,520 I'm not sure about Russia, they wouldn't tell us anyway. 201 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,520 What you say, 1946 was the first? 202 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,520 But I first, in the modern way. 203 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,520 It's because aren't these listed in history? 204 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:58,520 They always have been sightings, unexplained sightings in the sky, clear bag, 205 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,520 except that the reporting was not very good in those days. 206 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,520 What do you think you thought of, Leo? 207 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,520 I think maybe it's been a slight thought. 208 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,520 What do you think eventually is going to happen? Are you... 209 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,520 Well, I'm seriously proposing after all these years of thinking about it, 210 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,520 I'm perhaps, have been rather cautious. 211 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,520 But I think now it's high time that civilian scientists took a solid look at this, 212 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:29,520 that we have, I'd like to actually propose a civilian scientist research center 213 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,520 for the study of the UFO phenomenon. 214 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,520 And by the UFO phenomenon, I mean not only the reports, 215 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,520 but the kinds of people who make the reports, 216 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,520 and the general study of the public interest. 217 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,520 And I would not have just physical scientists, 218 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,520 the star immersion, the forthcoming. 219 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:55,520 But I think we should also have psychologists and people who are well versed in investigative techniques. 220 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:04,520 In other words, I think the time has come when we should give a good, solid, scientific look at this thing. 221 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,520 Interesting. Good. Good to see you, doctor. 222 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:07,520 We'll be right back.